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Epiphany

66 Comments on Epiphany

Source: Facebook. With thanks to Pete.

Published in Manfeels Park on November 19, 2014 by Mo

Next week on Manfeels Park... (66)

Michelle on November 19, 2014 @ 10:43 pm Reply

I actually emphasize with the position that the shirt is just pulpy comic women shooting guns. Yes, they are curvy. No, they are not nude. And no, I don’t in any way relate to these comic book characters. So I don’t feel objectified, and instead I come away frustrated over this whole kerfuffle.

I really don’t want prudish, Puritanical types who judge people based on their clothes running the show. This clothes policing is not that far from slut-shaming women who choose to wear tight or revealing clothes.

And saying that the shirt discourages girls from entering STEM fields, which I’ve also seen tossed out like a grenade during discussions of this issue is WAY out there. That’s a serious, pretty paranoid leap to make.. Frankly, if more young *people* feel discouraged from entering STEM fields after this debacle, it’s more likely to be because they saw Dr. Taylor’s singular scientific accomplishment being treated as less important than his wardrobe..

Mary on November 20, 2014 @ 9:10 pm Reply

“Yes, they are curvy. No, they are not nude.”

But they are heavily sexualized, and given the way our society often prioritizes women’s sex appeal over their other skills, it bears remark. As a woman working in tech who has been told that her achievements have more to do with her gender and her looks than her abilities, I was pretty dismayed that nobody thought to tell him that the shirt was, at the least, incredibly unprofessional. You may think it’s paranoid for some of us to think this contributes to an environment where women are discouraged from applying, and if we saw anything close to gender parity in STEM fields, I might agree with you. But we don’t, so the messages we send about what role women play in scientific accomplishments really matters.

That said, this in no way diminishes the importance of this incredible achievement. I thought Dr. Taylor’s apology was very gracious, and I look forward to all the other great work I’m sure he’ll continue to do in the future.

Nicole B. on November 20, 2014 @ 2:59 am Reply

I think the main problem with his attire and his phrasing was that it was unprofessional. However, this brings up what to me is the more disturbing thing: that while the shirt didn’t make me feel objectified either, it spoke to me loud and clear that he’s okay with objectifying (at LEAST some) women to his colleagues and the public. *That* is the thing that worries me about joining an organization in a STEM field: the boys’ club culture. While I’ve already had some decidedly unpleasant experiences as a physics major in a department of mostly men, usually it’s just a few outspoken individuals. Most people have been just fine. The problem in a work environment is, often the outspoken members drive the culture. Also, he’s not someone I would want as my boss if that’s the way he behaves in a professional environment–I’d worry about how he’d handle my evaluations, among other things.

Lynn on November 20, 2014 @ 3:39 am Reply

I like the comic – it’s hilarious – but I’m not sure what the shirt reference is from.

Mo on November 20, 2014 @ 9:40 am Reply

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/17/casual_sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/doing-good-science/2014/11/17/the-rosetta-mission-shirtstorm-was-never-just-about-that-shirt/

http://www.emilywillinghamphd.com/2014/11/space-program-or-booby-shirt-ladies-its.html

Aimee on November 20, 2014 @ 12:04 pm Reply

The shirt brought back some memories for me. My first job out of college, in the mid 1980s, was with a six-office firm in our area, with nine partners, all male. One of the “hip” young partners had a poster from the movie “Heavy Metal” hanging in his office – the one with the woman clad in strips of black leather, riding a sort of dragonlike beast. Now, I like the movie, and that woman plays a strong role in it. But she’s still dressed for the guys, and sitting through meetings which were never less than three-quarters male, in a room dominated by that poster, was always an uncomfortable feeling. I’d have hoped we’d have developed a little more awareness in the past 30 years.

paradoctor on November 21, 2014 @ 7:27 am Reply

The comet guy wasn’t being a sexist; he was being a Dilbert. Socially clueless. Yes, unprofessional; yes, bad taste and manners; yes, someone should have said “you gonna wear that?!” I guess is that he picked the brightest colored shirt in his closet. If it had been a garish plaid then only the fashion police would have complained.

Fashion policing is for the Marketing Department; but Dilberts work in the Engineering Department, where they get things done, rather than make them look good. Sure he had a wardrobe malfunction, but not a spacecraft malfunction.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 21, 2014 @ 7:38 pm Reply

Ever notice how Dilbert’s (only) female coworker is always trying to “control her fist of death”?

Can you imagine how much more productive she would be if she didn’t have to devote any of her mental energy to doing that?

Perhaps the guy who knows not to wear a dumbass shirt to work (or own a dumbass shirt) knows hwo to make a lander that doesn’t bounce. Or maybe we should hire a girl who does.

Mind = blown.

paradoctor on November 22, 2014 @ 7:40 am Reply

Alice hates everything, which certainly includes her socially-inept co-workers; but she has a particularly warm spot in her heart for the pointy-haired boss and the bullet-headed CEO. Think how much more productive she’d be if she could trust them to reward her for her efforts.

Good fashion sense and cutting-edge technology are not well-correlated skill sets.

Dr. Taylor’s wardrobe malfunction was the gift of his best friend’s wife. Go complain to her.

I see a series of Dilbert cartoons in this. Someone should alert Scott Adams.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 22, 2014 @ 1:57 pm Reply

You seriously don’t see the difference between an ugly shirt and a sexist shirt?

The term is “willfully obtuse”. Good day, sir.

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 9:16 pm Reply

Sure I see the difference between an ugly shirt and a sexist shirt. The first is accused of bad aesthetics; the second is accused of bad politics. But in both cases the righteous accusers are self-appointed.

Your accusation is against the woman who gave that shirt as a gift.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 9:22 pm Reply

#notyourshield, I swear!

Sara on November 24, 2014 @ 7:58 am Reply

There’s a difference between giving a shirt like that as a (most likely joke) gift, and wearing it to an event like this. Giving it is mildly amusing. Wearing it is either deliberate, or just massively clueless. Both are… eh. Not good.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 24, 2014 @ 11:21 am Reply

But you dont understand! The wimmanz gave it to him! It’s all the fault of the matriarchy!

/all of the facepalms

paradoctor on November 24, 2014 @ 3:23 pm Reply

You’re quite right, I vote clueless.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 24, 2014 @ 3:42 pm Reply

Yea after she gave him the shirt she zapped him with a stupid ray that made him wear it.

I’m still extremely curious why the fuck you felt the need to loudly announce that A WOMAN gave it to him. At least some semblance of an explanation of why that’s relevant would be pretty awesome.

paradoctor on November 25, 2014 @ 6:12 am Reply

It is evidence that not all women are alike. Tastes differ; ideas differ; ideals differ. So to claim to speak for all women is over-reach.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 25, 2014 @ 1:05 pm

Ha ha stupid troll claims I speak for all women, is trolling

Rhube on November 23, 2014 @ 1:21 am Reply

I can’t believe this whole conversation has gone on without anyone mentioning that Scott Adams is massively sexist.

Scott Adams on the naturalness of rape and how we should ease up on men’s natural instincts: http://jezebel.com/5813290/dilbert-creator-scott-adams-weighs-in-on-rape-now

Scott Adams on the best strategy being to treat women like children and the mentally handicapped: http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/

More sexist from Scott Adams: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scott_Adams#Sexist_douchebaggery

Guy is a raging misogynist.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 9:24 pm Reply

I did not know that. Alice always seemed to be a pretty realistic depiction of women in tech, for a comic strip character.

The more you know…

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 9:26 pm Reply

You’re right, Scott’s a jerk. He says so himself. But good manners are not required satirical cartooning.
In his “defense”, let me point out that his misogyny is a subset of his misanthropy.
If Scott’s flawed, then is his creation Alice a reliable source of insight into women’s issues?

Can we please get back to the comet guy? The one whose team landed a spacecraft on a comet? Or is clothing more important? How superficial!

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 9:29 pm Reply

Oops: make that “good manners are not required ‘for’ satirical cartooning.”

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 9:35 pm Reply

Hey pal, when I was growing up in brooklyn we had some names for guys who hid behind women when they got called on their bullshit. I’m not going to type those names on a feminist blog, but if you want to find me I’ll let you know to your face. I use my real name here, shouldn’t be too hard. Until then, how about you sit down and shut up and let the grownups talk.

Apologies to the host, but this guy is starting to wear thin.

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 10:18 pm Reply

Dear Mo: we have here a KISA; a Knight In Shining Armor. His challenge is brave and valiant, though random.
What is the third-wave feminist view of knights in shining armor?

As for myself, I’m a critic. I don’t mind conflict as much as inanity. Why fear to offend when the universe itself injures?

Mo on November 24, 2014 @ 9:13 pm Reply

Hey, he paid for his bag of troll-feed like everyone else in the zoo, he gets to throw all the cheetos he wants.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 24, 2014 @ 11:46 pm Reply

Alas you are entirely correct, I am too immature to know when I’m being trolled and react accordingly. Thank you for the excellent and humorous perspective.

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 9:38 pm Reply

All right, if Scott won’t do, then how about “The Hunger Games”? Shall we judge a BeeTee by Effie Trinket standards?

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 9:49 pm Reply

Dude, nobody cares about your butthurt. You are the only one who pretends that anybody ever said that some dude’s shirt is more important than the comet landing. I am in school for stem now. When I get a job I don’t want to work with only guys. If you don’t believe that there is a history of minimizing and marginalizing women in stem, gtfo and stfu and do some reading. It is not our job to educate you. In fact I already regret wasting 1.5 minutes typing this. For god’s sake stop typing and start reading.

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 11:28 pm Reply

I stand corrected. His tacky shirt was _almost_ as important as the comet landing.

I’ve taught math at a community college for decades now. In my job I deal with every social group except the rich. All struggle, all are marginalized, partly by gender and ethnicity, but mostly by class. Down in the working class, social justice is mostly a matter of hours, wages, benefits, conditions and job security.

Mo: note his motivation; he wants to work with women. He likes women; he wants them around. That’s perfectly valid, and sincere, and even sweet, but as I’m sure you know, there are potential complications. The trouble with a knight in shining armor is that he needs a code of chivalry which gives him a real chance of getting to Yes. Otherwise the deal’s off!

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 11:34 pm Reply

Ha ha, he thinks I want to work with women so I can get laid! Get it?

Douche

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 11:35 pm Reply

Good thing you only teach at cc, I sure as shit don’t want you interacting with anyone at a 4-year school.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 10:25 pm Reply

Last hint you’re going to get from me. That shirt was a fashion faux pas the way this was a fashion faux pas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpfSkB8nls

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 11:39 pm Reply

Mo: See what I mean? KISA. Valiant, sincere, passionate, belligerent.

Mo on November 24, 2014 @ 9:15 pm Reply

Those are four of my favourite words! 🙂

Joseph Stavitsky on November 24, 2014 @ 11:52 pm Reply

Dawww *blush*

Almost makes me think I didn’t waste time and calories on this clown.

paradoctor on November 25, 2014 @ 4:31 am Reply

I forgot to add ‘macho’ to the list of KISA characteristics.
I am sure that you two will be very happy together.

paradoctor on November 25, 2014 @ 9:01 pm Reply

If wearing a tacky shirt is like inciting to race riot, then does the equation work the other way around? Is inciting to race riot like wearing a tacky shirt?

I ask because there is rioting in Ferguson today, incited by a grand jury’s failure to indict Michael Brown’s killer. Due to their blatant racism, a murderer walks free, and the town is on fire.

But at least they didn’t wear tacky shirts while undermining the rule of law. Tell me; if they had indicted the killer, but worn inappropriately sexy shirts while doing so, would that have been better? Or worse? Or just the same?

Joseph Stavitsky on November 25, 2014 @ 9:04 pm Reply

Ha ha stupid troll doesn’t understand analogies, is stupid, is a troll

paradoctor on November 25, 2014 @ 10:04 pm Reply

I understand analogy; but I also understand appropriateness and timing, which you do not. Comparing racial incitement to bad clothing… right on the eve of the Ferguson riots… how clueless.

Speaking of clueless: a Die Hard clip? For a Jane Austen feminist website? Really?! Way to testosterone-up the comments section, dudebro!

Joseph Stavitsky on November 25, 2014 @ 11:09 pm

Ha ha Stupid Troll elects himself Chief of Feminist Tone Police, motion is carried and seconded (by Stupid Troll).

Note to management; I hope I’m not wearing out my welcome, but this guy is just too funny. Please let me know when it gets old and I’ll stop.

paradoctor on November 26, 2014 @ 5:30 am

Sir Dudebro, Knight of the Shiny Armor, laughs at his own jokes.

Rhube on November 26, 2014 @ 2:00 pm

It’s so cute that you don’t think women like things like Die Hard. You’re the one trying to Knight In Shining Armour, and you can fuck right off. Action movies aren’t just for men, and women can like Jane Austen whilst still enjoying other genres.

Also, just FYI, trying to use what’s happening in Ferguson to silence feminist discussion may be the grossest thing I have ever seen a troll do. Well done. You are the armpit of humanity.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 26, 2014 @ 2:42 pm

Yes, I laugh at my own jokes. It’s a character defect. In my defense, they’re so much funnier than yours.

paradoctor on November 26, 2014 @ 6:25 pm

Rhube: I stand corrected, tastes do indeed differ; so some women like Die Hard. But some do not: a Google search of “‘Die Hard with a vengeance’ misogyny” yields 13,600 hits. So it is problematic for Sir Dudebro to post it on this website. He presumed upon Mo’s tastes; an act of domination.

I cited Ferguson to critique Sir Dudebro’s derailing of a sexist-wardrobe discussion into a race-war rant.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 26, 2014 @ 8:38 pm

Haha Stupid Troll uses google search results for evidence twice in one day, wins Daily Internet Trolling award, is still stupid, still a troll.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 26, 2014 @ 8:41 pm

Your call Rhube, should I keep after this or has all the humor been sucked out?

paradoctor on November 21, 2014 @ 7:36 am Reply

And thank you for making the women’s alienation be _articulate_ this time.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 9:32 pm Reply

Not always necessary to be articulate.

“Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent”

-Wittgenstein

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 9:41 pm Reply

I see you your Wittgenstein quote, and raise you with:
“Nothing will come of nothing.”
– Shakespeare, “King Lear”.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 10:05 pm Reply

Haha a leatherman quote! Usable in any situation in reference to anything! Thanks, capt. vague!

paradoctor on November 25, 2014 @ 10:32 pm Reply

You are quite right; let me expand the quote for the benefit of those who are slow of understanding.

Shakespeare wrote, “Nothing will come of nothing. Speak again.”

In this context, it is a skeptical retort to Wittgenstein’s mysticism.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 25, 2014 @ 11:18 pm Reply

Whatever Wittgenstein was, he was no mystic. Now we can add philosophy to the vast number of things the Stupid Troll is ignorant of.

paradoctor on November 26, 2014 @ 5:40 am Reply

“Wittgenstein mysticism” on Google search got 137,000 hits, including these quotes from Wittgenstein’s Tractatus:

“It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists.” (6.44)
Variant translation: The mystical is not how the world is, but that it is.
Original German: Nicht wie die Welt ist, ist das Mystische, sondern dass sie ist.

“There are, indeed, things that cannot be put into words. They make themselves manifest. They are what is mystical.” (6.522)

Rhube on November 26, 2014 @ 2:11 pm Reply

Oh, sweetie, try Wittegenstein and just about anything else and you’ll get way more. He’s one of the most influential philosophers of all time. And he was (at the time of writing the Tractatus, anyway) a *logical positivist*. Logical positivism is verificationist position that the only meaningful statements are those open to empirical verification or which are analytically true (true by virtue of the meaning of the terms involved, e.g. ‘All bachellors are unmarried men’). To put it in layman’s terms: if it’s not a logical true of demonstrable by science it’s meaningless.

Also, selectively quoting the Tractatus is hilarious. That Wittgenstein wrote a proposition does not entail he endorsed it, many are presented for our consideration and provocation, not mere acceptance.

Rhube on November 26, 2014 @ 2:13 pm Reply

Bleh – typos: ‘if it’s not a logical truth or demonstrable by science it’s meaningless’

paradoctor on November 27, 2014 @ 11:21 pm Reply

Wittgenstein was a logical positivist, but with mystical tendencies, enough so to alarm Russell. Wittgenstein got over it, mostly, but the quotes cited above stand, and speak for themselves.

To recap the root of this thread: I praised Mo for making her female characters articulate this time. Sir Dudebro of the Shiny Armor defended feminine muteness by quoting a philosopher to the effect that some things are unspeakable. I retorted by quoting from the Bard to the effect that silence is useless.

Since then we’ve discussed the history of philosophy; which is not relevant to Mo’s artistry. I say that Mo is a talented artist and a budding vaudevillian, specializing in the buffoon/straight-man shtick. The Web provides her with an endless supply of young-male buffoonery to react to; which leaves writing the female straight-man to her.

That part’s hard. The straight-man must walk a delicate balance; she can’t be rude, or mutely enraged, or smugly inarticulate; for that’s unfunny and the straight-man is a clown too; the _apparently_ logical clown. The straight-man’s buffoonery is visible to philosophers and poets, but not dudebros.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 28, 2014 @ 12:19 am

Rhube, I second my inquiry – is this worth pursuing further or is it no longer funny?

Joseph Stavitsky on November 28, 2014 @ 12:27 am

Insecure Stupid Troll ignores only serious critic, is insecure, stupid, a troll

Sorry, I just could not resist. But like I said Rhube, if it has gotten old let me know and I’ll stop.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 26, 2014 @ 2:39 pm Reply

Only a CC math instructor would think that the number of Google hits is a good piece of supporting evidence in a philosophical debate.

Wittgenstein used the term “mysticism” to denote anything he considered outside the scope of philosphy and therefore unworthy of investigation, much like I can admit that the Stupid Troll has a thought process without actually caring what it is.

Francois Tremblay on November 23, 2014 @ 11:11 pm Reply

I love liberal feminists. They spit on anyone who complains about pornography, prostitution, physical and sexual abuse in BDSM, the patriarchy, the coercive and medically untested gender reassignment of children, but they get enraged about a t-shirt. Good work, idiots.

Joseph Stavitsky on November 23, 2014 @ 11:19 pm Reply

Can I meet these liberal feminists that live in your head? They sound hella cool

paradoctor on November 23, 2014 @ 11:52 pm Reply

I think you can find feminists on either side of all of these issues, except the patriarchy.

paradoctor on November 25, 2014 @ 10:37 pm Reply

And I don’t think that those you describe are ‘liberal’, for they are more for good manners than for liberty. So are they ‘manners feminists’?

Emma on November 26, 2014 @ 1:59 am Reply

It is a truth locally acknowledged that one can only receive regular updates of new posts from this site if one comments and then ticks the tick box, hence, this commentless comment!

Joseph Stavitsky on November 26, 2014 @ 8:39 pm Reply

Like the gateless gate, only with pixels.

Gabrielle on December 11, 2014 @ 2:34 am Reply

to be honest I heard the interview on radio and never saw the shirt till just now. any thoughts on Homer Simpson ties?

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